Hi,
I'm starting this as a new thread to clearly differentiate it from the short term question of "if we evacuate from freenode, where should we go?". I think moving to a different IRC network is important to do in the short term, and I don't want to confuse the issues.
At the same time, this whole process has sparked a lot of discussion (mostly elsewhere) about alternative technologies. One that I think shows particular promise is Matrix, and I'd like to find out if other folks feel similarly.
Some quick relevant points about Matrix (you can google it for more :):
* It's a decentralized chat protocol, so no single entity controls the infrastructure running it. * It is truly open-source and a variety of client interfaces exist. * It optionally supports end-to-end encryption. * There are existing bridges to other communication networks, like Freenode, OFTC. Libera should arrive soon[1]. * A variety of community, outsourced, or self-hosted options exist. * A number of large and small open-source communities use it.
Regarding the clients, I'd like to highlight three options:
1) There is a robust plugin for weechat (matrix-weechat). That means folks like me who like to have a small terminal window open for all of their messaging needs can seamlessly transition to using Matrix.
2) There is a very nice webclient (called Element) that looks and behaves like all the other really nice web chat clients; so folks who like user interfaces from this century can dig it.
3) There are mobile clients as well.
In all cases, due to the way Matrix works, users can switch between clients or use multiple clients simultaneously, and all of these clients have access to channel history even when disconnected. This is perhaps one of the largest pain points for new users of IRC.
The reason that works is that every user (and room) belongs to a "homeserver" and the homeserver handles storing messages and serving them to clients. Homeservers federate with other homeservers to form the larger Matrix network.
Any user on any homeserver can talk to any other user or join any room on any other homeserver (assuming permission is granted).
Typically, users do not run their own homeservers (unless they are enthusiasts -- the sort of folks who run their own email or web servers). Instead, they would either use a homeserver run by their company, or a project, or use the main public server hosted by the foundation which supports Matrix development: matrix.org.
In short, this provides an ideal experience:
* No need to run their own infrastructure * Federated, open-source, open protocols (no vendor lock-in) * Ability to communicate with many chat networks at once * Modern UX using more corporate-firewall-friendly connectivity options
When you combine this with the IRC bridging support, Matrix makes an ideal interface to all of the IRC networks in addition to the Matrix itself.
Okay, here's my vision for the future:
First, I'd like to suggest that folks sign up for a matrix.org account and use the IRC bridge to connect to #zuul on freenode. If/when we switch to a different IRC network, just follow us to that network.
This is an easy way for us to evaluate Matrix (both the clients and the server network) and decide if we like the technology.
Assuming we do, then we should consider eliminating the middle-man, and move from a bridged IRC channel to a native Matrix room. At that point, we will want a homeserver for the room at least. This is where getting feedback early so that we know what to prepare for would be good (do we want a homeserver just to host rooms? or should we also be looking to host user accounts as well?). There are discussions to be had with OpenDev and the Foundation about this, but first we need to know where we want to go.
If this sounds like a terrible idea, please let me know. If it sounds worth exploring, then I encourage you to do what I'm doing right now: use Matrix to interact with #zuul on IRC instead of a native IRC client. Try it out and let's see how it works. Here's what you do:
1) Go to https://app.element.io/ and sign up for an account. You know the drill.
2) Once you're logged in, click on the "+" next to "Rooms" and then "Explore public rooms".
3) Under the search bar where it says "Matrix rooms (matrix.org)" click the drop-down and switch it to "Freenode". Type "#zuul" into the search box. Click Join.
4) Now, ideally this would be the end of the instructions, and if we move to OFTC, hopefully it will be; but because of the spam problem on freenode, #zuul requires nick registration. That means we need to tell the matrix.org IRC bridge to use our registered nicks. You'll note that you have been kicked from #zuul and you have an invitation to join a room "Freenode IRC Bridge status". Accept the invitation.
5) Type "!help" to see a list of commands.
6) Type "!nick" followed by your existing Freenode nick.
7) Type "!storepass" followed by the password for your Freenode nick. Note, you're giving your nick password to a bot run by a third party. You'll need to evaluate whether you're okay with that. At the least, use a unique password.
8) Type "!join #zuul" (that should have the same effect as adding the room earlier).
I admit, these instructions are weird since I told you to start by doing something that won't work. But I do want to show how simple this should be once we can either relax the nick registration requirement or move off of IRC completely; either way, it's just the first 3 steps.
If you want to skip that part, you could initiate a PM to "@appservice-irc:matrix.org" and start at step #5.
Each IRC bridge has a different bot running it; to do the same thing for OFTC, you would talk to "@oftc-irc:matrix.org".
That's it for now. Please let me know if you have any feedback, and I'd encourage everyone to at least try out element/matrix. I've been using a lot of different chat systems lately, and I'm really pleased with how this is working out. Even if we decide to stay on IRC, I plan to use the Matrix bridge as my primary interface. If you do too, then it will be easy to stay connected with projects on various IRC networks as well as be prepared for any potential moves to Matrix.
-Jim
[1] https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1324
Hey,
When the whole discussion over IRC started we in our team already did this step. We liked it quite a lot and created some private rooms (move away from Hangouts). Currently we work on setting up or own homeserver that we will be integrating with our bots and zuul to be using it as a single team communication and information platform (you can integrate Grafana panels or smith else that will give you short status of the platform).
From pure IRC client replacement (use of bridge) it works very good with only advantages for us (I admit we use more Element app both on workstations and mobile rather than weechat). I also like that it is possible to integrate Jitsi/Ethercalc/Etherpad/etc into it to have everything in a single place. VoIP (1to1) is of a very good quality, sadly screen sharing in this case is totally weird.
Artem
On 25. May 2021, at 23:34, James E. Blair jim@acmegating.com wrote:
Hi,
I'm starting this as a new thread to clearly differentiate it from the short term question of "if we evacuate from freenode, where should we go?". I think moving to a different IRC network is important to do in the short term, and I don't want to confuse the issues.
At the same time, this whole process has sparked a lot of discussion (mostly elsewhere) about alternative technologies. One that I think shows particular promise is Matrix, and I'd like to find out if other folks feel similarly.
Some quick relevant points about Matrix (you can google it for more :):
- It's a decentralized chat protocol, so no single entity controls the
infrastructure running it.
- It is truly open-source and a variety of client interfaces exist.
- It optionally supports end-to-end encryption.
- There are existing bridges to other communication networks, like
Freenode, OFTC. Libera should arrive soon[1].
- A variety of community, outsourced, or self-hosted options exist.
- A number of large and small open-source communities use it.
Regarding the clients, I'd like to highlight three options:
- There is a robust plugin for weechat (matrix-weechat). That means
folks like me who like to have a small terminal window open for all of their messaging needs can seamlessly transition to using Matrix.
- There is a very nice webclient (called Element) that looks and
behaves like all the other really nice web chat clients; so folks who like user interfaces from this century can dig it.
- There are mobile clients as well.
In all cases, due to the way Matrix works, users can switch between clients or use multiple clients simultaneously, and all of these clients have access to channel history even when disconnected. This is perhaps one of the largest pain points for new users of IRC.
The reason that works is that every user (and room) belongs to a "homeserver" and the homeserver handles storing messages and serving them to clients. Homeservers federate with other homeservers to form the larger Matrix network.
Any user on any homeserver can talk to any other user or join any room on any other homeserver (assuming permission is granted).
Typically, users do not run their own homeservers (unless they are enthusiasts -- the sort of folks who run their own email or web servers). Instead, they would either use a homeserver run by their company, or a project, or use the main public server hosted by the foundation which supports Matrix development: matrix.org.
In short, this provides an ideal experience:
- No need to run their own infrastructure
- Federated, open-source, open protocols (no vendor lock-in)
- Ability to communicate with many chat networks at once
- Modern UX using more corporate-firewall-friendly connectivity options
When you combine this with the IRC bridging support, Matrix makes an ideal interface to all of the IRC networks in addition to the Matrix itself.
Okay, here's my vision for the future:
First, I'd like to suggest that folks sign up for a matrix.org account and use the IRC bridge to connect to #zuul on freenode. If/when we switch to a different IRC network, just follow us to that network.
This is an easy way for us to evaluate Matrix (both the clients and the server network) and decide if we like the technology.
Assuming we do, then we should consider eliminating the middle-man, and move from a bridged IRC channel to a native Matrix room. At that point, we will want a homeserver for the room at least. This is where getting feedback early so that we know what to prepare for would be good (do we want a homeserver just to host rooms? or should we also be looking to host user accounts as well?). There are discussions to be had with OpenDev and the Foundation about this, but first we need to know where we want to go.
If this sounds like a terrible idea, please let me know. If it sounds worth exploring, then I encourage you to do what I'm doing right now: use Matrix to interact with #zuul on IRC instead of a native IRC client. Try it out and let's see how it works. Here's what you do:
- Go to https://app.element.io/ and sign up for an account. You know
the drill.
- Once you're logged in, click on the "+" next to "Rooms" and then
"Explore public rooms".
<1.png> 3) Under the search bar where it says "Matrix rooms (matrix.org)" click the drop-down and switch it to "Freenode". Type "#zuul" into the search box. Click Join.
<2.png> 4) Now, ideally this would be the end of the instructions, and if we move to OFTC, hopefully it will be; but because of the spam problem on freenode, #zuul requires nick registration. That means we need to tell the matrix.org IRC bridge to use our registered nicks. You'll note that you have been kicked from #zuul and you have an invitation to join a room "Freenode IRC Bridge status". Accept the invitation.
Type "!help" to see a list of commands.
Type "!nick" followed by your existing Freenode nick.
Type "!storepass" followed by the password for your Freenode nick.
Note, you're giving your nick password to a bot run by a third party. You'll need to evaluate whether you're okay with that. At the least, use a unique password.
- Type "!join #zuul" (that should have the same effect as adding the
room earlier).
I admit, these instructions are weird since I told you to start by doing something that won't work. But I do want to show how simple this should be once we can either relax the nick registration requirement or move off of IRC completely; either way, it's just the first 3 steps.
If you want to skip that part, you could initiate a PM to "@appservice-irc:matrix.org" and start at step #5.
Each IRC bridge has a different bot running it; to do the same thing for OFTC, you would talk to "@oftc-irc:matrix.org".
That's it for now. Please let me know if you have any feedback, and I'd encourage everyone to at least try out element/matrix. I've been using a lot of different chat systems lately, and I'm really pleased with how this is working out. Even if we decide to stay on IRC, I plan to use the Matrix bridge as my primary interface. If you do too, then it will be easy to stay connected with projects on various IRC networks as well as be prepared for any potential moves to Matrix.
-Jim
[1] https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1324 _______________________________________________ Zuul-discuss mailing list Zuul-discuss@lists.zuul-ci.org http://lists.zuul-ci.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zuul-discuss
I had the same experience as Artem and Matrix looks like a good replacement for me. I noticed that the rooms which are not bridged to IRC work the best as everyone get the same features.
-Tristan
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 09:22 Artem Goncharov wrote:
Hey,
When the whole discussion over IRC started we in our team already did this step. We liked it quite a lot and created some private rooms (move away from Hangouts). Currently we work on setting up or own homeserver that we will be integrating with our bots and zuul to be using it as a single team communication and information platform (you can integrate Grafana panels or smith else that will give you short status of the platform).
From pure IRC client replacement (use of bridge) it works very good with only advantages for us (I admit we use more Element app both on workstations and mobile rather than weechat). I also like that it is possible to integrate Jitsi/Ethercalc/Etherpad/etc into it to have everything in a single place. VoIP (1to1) is of a very good quality, sadly screen sharing in this case is totally weird.
Artem
On 25. May 2021, at 23:34, James E. Blair jim@acmegating.com wrote:
Hi,
I'm starting this as a new thread to clearly differentiate it from the short term question of "if we evacuate from freenode, where should we go?". I think moving to a different IRC network is important to do in the short term, and I don't want to confuse the issues.
At the same time, this whole process has sparked a lot of discussion (mostly elsewhere) about alternative technologies. One that I think shows particular promise is Matrix, and I'd like to find out if other folks feel similarly.
Some quick relevant points about Matrix (you can google it for more :):
- It's a decentralized chat protocol, so no single entity controls the
infrastructure running it.
- It is truly open-source and a variety of client interfaces exist.
- It optionally supports end-to-end encryption.
- There are existing bridges to other communication networks, like
Freenode, OFTC. Libera should arrive soon[1].
- A variety of community, outsourced, or self-hosted options exist.
- A number of large and small open-source communities use it.
Regarding the clients, I'd like to highlight three options:
- There is a robust plugin for weechat (matrix-weechat). That means
folks like me who like to have a small terminal window open for all of their messaging needs can seamlessly transition to using Matrix.
- There is a very nice webclient (called Element) that looks and
behaves like all the other really nice web chat clients; so folks who like user interfaces from this century can dig it.
- There are mobile clients as well.
In all cases, due to the way Matrix works, users can switch between clients or use multiple clients simultaneously, and all of these clients have access to channel history even when disconnected. This is perhaps one of the largest pain points for new users of IRC.
The reason that works is that every user (and room) belongs to a "homeserver" and the homeserver handles storing messages and serving them to clients. Homeservers federate with other homeservers to form the larger Matrix network.
Any user on any homeserver can talk to any other user or join any room on any other homeserver (assuming permission is granted).
Typically, users do not run their own homeservers (unless they are enthusiasts -- the sort of folks who run their own email or web servers). Instead, they would either use a homeserver run by their company, or a project, or use the main public server hosted by the foundation which supports Matrix development: matrix.org.
In short, this provides an ideal experience:
- No need to run their own infrastructure
- Federated, open-source, open protocols (no vendor lock-in)
- Ability to communicate with many chat networks at once
- Modern UX using more corporate-firewall-friendly connectivity options
When you combine this with the IRC bridging support, Matrix makes an ideal interface to all of the IRC networks in addition to the Matrix itself.
Okay, here's my vision for the future:
First, I'd like to suggest that folks sign up for a matrix.org account and use the IRC bridge to connect to #zuul on freenode. If/when we switch to a different IRC network, just follow us to that network.
This is an easy way for us to evaluate Matrix (both the clients and the server network) and decide if we like the technology.
Assuming we do, then we should consider eliminating the middle-man, and move from a bridged IRC channel to a native Matrix room. At that point, we will want a homeserver for the room at least. This is where getting feedback early so that we know what to prepare for would be good (do we want a homeserver just to host rooms? or should we also be looking to host user accounts as well?). There are discussions to be had with OpenDev and the Foundation about this, but first we need to know where we want to go.
If this sounds like a terrible idea, please let me know. If it sounds worth exploring, then I encourage you to do what I'm doing right now: use Matrix to interact with #zuul on IRC instead of a native IRC client. Try it out and let's see how it works. Here's what you do:
- Go to https://app.element.io/ and sign up for an account. You know
the drill.
- Once you're logged in, click on the "+" next to "Rooms" and then
"Explore public rooms".
<1.png> 3) Under the search bar where it says "Matrix rooms (matrix.org)" click the drop-down and switch it to "Freenode". Type "#zuul" into the search box. Click Join.
<2.png> 4) Now, ideally this would be the end of the instructions, and if we move to OFTC, hopefully it will be; but because of the spam problem on freenode, #zuul requires nick registration. That means we need to tell the matrix.org IRC bridge to use our registered nicks. You'll note that you have been kicked from #zuul and you have an invitation to join a room "Freenode IRC Bridge status". Accept the invitation.
Type "!help" to see a list of commands.
Type "!nick" followed by your existing Freenode nick.
Type "!storepass" followed by the password for your Freenode nick.
Note, you're giving your nick password to a bot run by a third party. You'll need to evaluate whether you're okay with that. At the least, use a unique password.
- Type "!join #zuul" (that should have the same effect as adding the
room earlier).
I admit, these instructions are weird since I told you to start by doing something that won't work. But I do want to show how simple this should be once we can either relax the nick registration requirement or move off of IRC completely; either way, it's just the first 3 steps.
If you want to skip that part, you could initiate a PM to "@appservice-irc:matrix.org" and start at step #5.
Each IRC bridge has a different bot running it; to do the same thing for OFTC, you would talk to "@oftc-irc:matrix.org".
That's it for now. Please let me know if you have any feedback, and I'd encourage everyone to at least try out element/matrix. I've been using a lot of different chat systems lately, and I'm really pleased with how this is working out. Even if we decide to stay on IRC, I plan to use the Matrix bridge as my primary interface. If you do too, then it will be easy to stay connected with projects on various IRC networks as well as be prepared for any potential moves to Matrix.
-Jim
[1] https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1324 _______________________________________________ Zuul-discuss mailing list Zuul-discuss@lists.zuul-ci.org http://lists.zuul-ci.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zuul-discuss
Zuul-discuss mailing list Zuul-discuss@lists.zuul-ci.org http://lists.zuul-ci.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zuul-discuss
James E. Blair wrote:
Hi,
I'm starting this as a new thread to clearly differentiate it from the short term question of "if we evacuate from freenode, where should we go?". I think moving to a different IRC network is important to do in the short term, and I don't want to confuse the issues.
At the same time, this whole process has sparked a lot of discussion (mostly elsewhere) about alternative technologies. One that I think shows particular promise is Matrix, and I'd like to find out if other folks feel similarly. [...]
I do feel similarly. The decentralized/federated aspect is especially compelling, in light of the Freenode debacle.
Beyond its flexibility, another feature I like in Matrix is the ability to curate "community spaces" (think: list of related channels) and point your community members to that rather than assume they will magically discover all your channels.
Matthew Hodgson gave a great talk at FOSDEM 2021 on the current state of Matrix, in the context of FOSDEM's use of matrix to run the whole conference:
https://video.fosdem.org/2021/M.misc/matrix_communities.webm
Hi,
I have been informed that some mail clients truncated my mail at the first MIME boundary; so I'm copying it below without the images.
**********************************************************************
Hi,
I'm starting this as a new thread to clearly differentiate it from the short term question of "if we evacuate from freenode, where should we go?". I think moving to a different IRC network is important to do in the short term, and I don't want to confuse the issues.
At the same time, this whole process has sparked a lot of discussion (mostly elsewhere) about alternative technologies. One that I think shows particular promise is Matrix, and I'd like to find out if other folks feel similarly.
Some quick relevant points about Matrix (you can google it for more :):
* It's a decentralized chat protocol, so no single entity controls the infrastructure running it. * It is truly open-source and a variety of client interfaces exist. * It optionally supports end-to-end encryption. * There are existing bridges to other communication networks, like Freenode, OFTC. Libera should arrive soon[1]. * A variety of community, outsourced, or self-hosted options exist. * A number of large and small open-source communities use it.
Regarding the clients, I'd like to highlight three options:
1) There is a robust plugin for weechat (matrix-weechat). That means folks like me who like to have a small terminal window open for all of their messaging needs can seamlessly transition to using Matrix.
2) There is a very nice webclient (called Element) that looks and behaves like all the other really nice web chat clients; so folks who like user interfaces from this century can dig it.
3) There are mobile clients as well.
In all cases, due to the way Matrix works, users can switch between clients or use multiple clients simultaneously, and all of these clients have access to channel history even when disconnected. This is perhaps one of the largest pain points for new users of IRC.
The reason that works is that every user (and room) belongs to a "homeserver" and the homeserver handles storing messages and serving them to clients. Homeservers federate with other homeservers to form the larger Matrix network.
Any user on any homeserver can talk to any other user or join any room on any other homeserver (assuming permission is granted).
Typically, users do not run their own homeservers (unless they are enthusiasts -- the sort of folks who run their own email or web servers). Instead, they would either use a homeserver run by their company, or a project, or use the main public server hosted by the foundation which supports Matrix development: matrix.org.
In short, this provides an ideal experience:
* No need to run their own infrastructure * Federated, open-source, open protocols (no vendor lock-in) * Ability to communicate with many chat networks at once * Modern UX using more corporate-firewall-friendly connectivity options
When you combine this with the IRC bridging support, Matrix makes an ideal interface to all of the IRC networks in addition to the Matrix itself.
Okay, here's my vision for the future:
First, I'd like to suggest that folks sign up for a matrix.org account and use the IRC bridge to connect to #zuul on freenode. If/when we switch to a different IRC network, just follow us to that network.
This is an easy way for us to evaluate Matrix (both the clients and the server network) and decide if we like the technology.
Assuming we do, then we should consider eliminating the middle-man, and move from a bridged IRC channel to a native Matrix room. At that point, we will want a homeserver for the room at least. This is where getting feedback early so that we know what to prepare for would be good (do we want a homeserver just to host rooms? or should we also be looking to host user accounts as well?). There are discussions to be had with OpenDev and the Foundation about this, but first we need to know where we want to go.
If this sounds like a terrible idea, please let me know. If it sounds worth exploring, then I encourage you to do what I'm doing right now: use Matrix to interact with #zuul on IRC instead of a native IRC client. Try it out and let's see how it works. Here's what you do:
1) Go to https://app.element.io/ and sign up for an account. You know the drill.
2) Once you're logged in, click on the "+" next to "Rooms" and then "Explore public rooms".
3) Under the search bar where it says "Matrix rooms (matrix.org)" click the drop-down and switch it to "Freenode". Type "#zuul" into the search box. Click Join.
4) Now, ideally this would be the end of the instructions, and if we move to OFTC, hopefully it will be; but because of the spam problem on freenode, #zuul requires nick registration. That means we need to tell the matrix.org IRC bridge to use our registered nicks. You'll note that you have been kicked from #zuul and you have an invitation to join a room "Freenode IRC Bridge status". Accept the invitation.
5) Type "!help" to see a list of commands.
6) Type "!nick" followed by your existing Freenode nick.
7) Type "!storepass" followed by the password for your Freenode nick. Note, you're giving your nick password to a bot run by a third party. You'll need to evaluate whether you're okay with that. At the least, use a unique password.
8) Type "!join #zuul" (that should have the same effect as adding the room earlier).
I admit, these instructions are weird since I told you to start by doing something that won't work. But I do want to show how simple this should be once we can either relax the nick registration requirement or move off of IRC completely; either way, it's just the first 3 steps.
If you want to skip that part, you could initiate a PM to "@appservice-irc:matrix.org" and start at step #5.
Each IRC bridge has a different bot running it; to do the same thing for OFTC, you would talk to "@oftc-irc:matrix.org".
That's it for now. Please let me know if you have any feedback, and I'd encourage everyone to at least try out element/matrix. I've been using a lot of different chat systems lately, and I'm really pleased with how this is working out. Even if we decide to stay on IRC, I plan to use the Matrix bridge as my primary interface. If you do too, then it will be easy to stay connected with projects on various IRC networks as well as be prepared for any potential moves to Matrix.
-Jim
[1] https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1324
"James E. Blair" jim@acmegating.com writes:
Okay, here's my vision for the future:
First, I'd like to suggest that folks sign up for a matrix.org account and use the IRC bridge to connect to #zuul on freenode. If/when we switch to a different IRC network, just follow us to that network.
This is an easy way for us to evaluate Matrix (both the clients and the server network) and decide if we like the technology.
Assuming we do, then we should consider eliminating the middle-man, and move from a bridged IRC channel to a native Matrix room. At that point, we will want a homeserver for the room at least. This is where getting feedback early so that we know what to prepare for would be good (do we want a homeserver just to host rooms? or should we also be looking to host user accounts as well?). There are discussions to be had with OpenDev and the Foundation about this, but first we need to know where we want to go.
No one has told me this is a terrible idea, so you're either very polite or think it's worth exploring.
I know that a number of folks have started using Matrix and the bridge, and are continuing to do so. I am as well.
Now that we are moving beyond the immediate crisis of the Freenode -> OFTC transition, I think we can start talking about whether we want to take the next step and move to Matrix.
I pushed up a Zuul spec about that here:
https://review.opendev.org/c/zuul/zuul/+/793669
I'd like to use that to see if we can obtain consensus about moving to Matrix. Keep in mind that once we agree on that, that's merely the indication that we, as a project, want that. We will then discuss with the OpenDev folks how to make that happen.
It sounds process heavy, but I don't think it has to be slow. I think this could happen as quickly or as slowly as we want it to. Ultimately it's not that complicated technically.
And of course, many of the OpenDev folks are in our community as well, so it's not like anything is going to come as a surprise. But since some of us wear multiple hats, I just want to respect project boundaries.
Anyway, take a look at that, leave feedback, and we'll go from there.
-Jim
participants (4)
-
Artem Goncharov
-
James E. Blair
-
Thierry Carrez
-
Tristan Cacqueray